This is related to the "What's with Stats?" post, but different enough to be an offshoot, I think. People keep saying that no matter how much you hide stats, the players will eventually figure them out, post them on the internet or whatever, and so what's the point? I think that having static stats/abilities is silly anyway. Here's my solution: THE EASY WAY: Just make things like weapon damage, chance to pick a lock, hits points gained per level, chance to hit an opponent, etc. RANDOM but contained within a range. So, instead of knowing that you get five hit points for every level you gain, it could be somewhere between 3 and 15. A lot of games do this at some level - weapons that have min and max damage, etc. In special instances, freak with the endpoints of the range to keep them guessing. THE COOL WAY Start with the above situation, then pile a bunch of modifiers onto it. So, you start off with a strength that is in the range of 20-50. Well, if you've been walking for a long time, you're weaker. Subtract another randomly generated number, say between 2-4. If you're really mad, maybe you get an adrenalin rush. Add a number between 3-5. If you're from the frozen north, maybe the midday heat is sapping you. Subtract some more. And so on. To make this even better, don't show the stats for weapons. Don't disply stats for the basic attributes (strength, intelligence, etc.) . To make it really cool, and to give the players some fun and incentive, make the player look different when they're at the peak of their attributes. Make the player look beefed up when he is in the top 5% of his strength. Make her glow blue when her magic is in its sweet spot. Make a sword shower sparks when it's really slashing someone. Or let the character comment on how they're feeling. That could be highly amusing as well. I think this would be the best of both worlds - it's like real life, you can't just figure it out (which means your brain goes to sleep), and yet you can add cool, fun fantastic effects for special occasions, and to let your players know how they're doing. The only limitation I see here is really time. Time because every instance would add code, and the cool effects would mean more graphics. Ideas, anyone? - gollum Edited by - gollum on 7/6/00 11:19:42 AM

quote: Original post by Gollum
People keep saying that no matter how much you hide stats, the players will eventually figure them out, post them on the internet or whatever, and so what''s the point?

THE EASY WAY:
Just make things like weapon damage, chance to pick a lock, hits points gained per level, chance to hit an opponent, etc. RANDOM but contained within a range. So, instead of knowing that you get five hit points for every level you gain, it could be somewhere between 3 and 15. A lot of games do this at some level - weapons that have min and max damage, etc. In special instances, freak with the endpoints of the range to keep them guessing.

THE COOL WAY
Start with the above situation, then pile a bunch of modifiers onto it. So, you start off with a strength that is in the range of 20-50. Well, if you''ve been walking for a long time, you''re weaker. Subtract another randomly generated number, say between 2-4. If you''re really mad, maybe you get an adrenalin rush. Add a number between 3-5. If you''re from the frozen north, maybe the midday heat is sapping you. Subtract some more. And so on.

To make this even better, don''t show the stats for weapons. Don''t disply stats for the basic attributes (strength, intelligence, etc.) . To make it really cool, and to give the players some fun and incentive, make the player look different when they''re at the peak of their attributes. Make the player look beefed up when he is in the top 5% of his strength. Make her glow blue when her magic is in its sweet spot. Make a sword shower sparks when it''s really slashing someone.

Some good ideas, I think. It is certainly true that if you don''t provide the hard numbers, some people will go searching for them. Some of them may be cheaters or trainers, or just doing it for fun. Power to them. That not sufficient reason to be forced into revealing numbers.

If I were doing it, I would probably experiment with a fuzzy number (fuzzy logic) system. Hard stats would be replaced with descriptive words ("weak", "average", "strong") that represent a range (although with fuzzy logic, it''s not really a range... beyond this topic though, so I won''t get into that further).

Then, as you suggest, certain character states will modify that range, or that fuzzy value. "Tired" could lower strength slightly, while "pumped" would raise strength slightly. These are fuzzy adjectives that have corresponding mathematical operations. Easy to implement, but don''t fixate on a particular number.

As for drawing the character to represent their state, this is certainly possible. Have a few drawings for each descriptive term ("strong" may be drawn as a bodybuilder, while "weak" might look like a computer nerd; pardon the stereotypes).

There have been some games that do this to a certain extent. The first one I remember is Doom. Near your health was a picture of the character''s face; as you received more damage, the face would become bloodier and more mangled. While fairly simple, it was effective for its time.


---- --- -- -
Blue programmer needs food badly. Blue programmer is about to die!

Yeah, I remember how cool it was when I first saw the bloody face in Doom.

If I ever do have even a pseudo-garage-game company, I''m gonna call it Fuzzy Games. Because almost all of the stuff I really like comes down to some sort of fuzzy logic (from what little I understand of that subject) and particle systems.

- me

Yes, those are good ideas, it has been said that the player should not know specifics about things such as health/armour etc. I think this would be a good step, and would increase the tension in some ways (point in case, bloody face) because you do not know the exact value of something. I agree with your views on static stats and abilities, they should be dynamic based on what you are doing, e.g. if you want sword mastery - you gotta use a sword and batter crap into a lot of bad guys, then your mastery will increase, if you want more strength, you should be carrying heavier items, etc. etc.

All sound ideas, just the implementation needed....

-Mezz

I like the idea of using "strong" "average" and "weak" for certain stats. That is something that could be exagerated upon a lot. Instead of people running around saying "I have a 100 Str" they can say " I am strong!" More name can come around like Brute, Macho or something like that (those are just something off the top of my head, nothing that can be used) but something that does take stats a little away. Not all the way though.

people like stats, why else would games show them? Yet your plan is to deprive people of the knowledge they seek. You presume that you know more about what the player wants than what he does. Those who don''t like stats don''t look at them, those who do, do. Taking away that choice is foolish.

Computers, being things that compute after all, can''t do very much without numbers. When I say to get rid of stats, I don''t mean to remove them from the program. Instead I''d like to hide them from the player. Even more than that, I''d like to vary them, for two reasons:

1. The player won''t be able to figure out exactly how they work. Predictability puts players to sleep, and constant stats are an infestation of predictability. If you vary stats, it''ll be hard to play the game the same way twice.

2. It''ll be more like real life. And in this case, that''s not a vague moral thing, but something that adds to playability. I''ll know that my thief is going to do best in the dark of night, in an alleyway, when stabbing from behind. I''ll know that my water priest will do really deal some damage when he''s standing in a stream in the pouring rain. I''ll end up actually planning based on the situation, rather than thinking, "Ok, three hits on this spider will kill it, just like every other spider I''ve met in the game." If I''m going to armwrestle a brigand for the life of a fair maiden, I might eat a big meal and get some sleep first.

Add in the graphics, and you might see that your mage is glowing blue, and think "Yeeha! I bet I have a chance against that troll now!" and run off to fight it while the time is right.

Hee hee. Ok, now all I gotta do is learn to program.

- gollum

There comes another idea i''ve chewed on ...

- most rpg''s come with some kind of levels - i don''t think there is anything wrong with that (you wont go around killing anyone 10 levels above or below you) - but in my opinion there shouldn''t be an automatic - rather it should be something about promotion perhaps on some kind of test.

and here comes my idea about hidden stats - the stats should be relativ to the level - and as the leveling isn''t automatic a strong level one can well be stronger than a weak level two
weak, average, strong would be very variable - as when all the other in the level rise and your character stands still you will get weaker - though if there are many promotions of lower strengh the same will go up in strength - the player always knows where he stands in comparison to equals.

my 2 cents

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster

people like stats, why else would games show them? Yet your plan is to deprive people of the knowledge they seek. You presume that you know more about what the player wants than what he does. Those who don''t like stats don''t look at them, those who do, do. Taking away that choice is foolish.

People enjoy squeaky wheels on shopping carts. Why else would shopping carts have them? People seek out statistics in games only because you make it worth their while by crippling those who don''t. If your game needs a certain kind of stat to be fun, use it. Otherwise, don''t. Don''t use flawed logic to support tradition when tradition supports itself!

I''m all for hiding the numbers from the players. If I ever get around to making my MMORPG, that''s what I''ll do. But if you do this, there''s a few important things to keep in mind.

1) Logical things should affect your abilities. In my opinion, the more things that can affect your abilities, the better. For example, rest, hunger, daylight, even your mood could come into effect.

2) There should be feedback of some sort when your abilities are affected. For example, in Ultima Online, you know exactly when your skills have gone up the tiniest increment, but you''re never quite sure how hungry you are until you eat... Feedback can come in the form of messages, icons, or changes in the player image, or even more creative things, but if you don''t represent in some way the knowledge the character would have, you''ll just frustrate the gamer.