Thieves and scammers?
August 22, 2001 07:41 PM
In MMO games I constantly hear folks complain about theives and scam artists. That makes me think twice about adding these types of characters to a single player game.
What would make thieves and scam artists acceptable? Or do you think players won''t tolerate losing anything at all?
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Just waiting for the mothership...
--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...
100
August 22, 2001 08:05 PM
Well, thieves should be one category, and scam artist should be a part of a thief or bard, if you playing by AD&D''s campaign, because Bards/Thiefs usually have a good amount of charisma. A MultiClass charecter between Bard and Thierf should be able to gain that ability.
Good Luck.
"I''''ve sparred with creatures from the nine hells themselves... I barely plan on breaking a sweat here, today."~Drizzt Do''''Urden
Good Luck.
"I''''ve sparred with creatures from the nine hells themselves... I barely plan on breaking a sweat here, today."~Drizzt Do''''Urden
------------------------------Put THAT in your smoke and pipe it
112
August 22, 2001 08:14 PM
Oh man!
I started a thread in the Lounge discussing the works of Jack Vance. Never have I encountered a more colorful group of greedy deceptive scoundrel types than in his books. And it is worth noting that several of his works have been made into RPG''s.
All I can say is: read his Demon Princes series and his Planet of Adventure series and you will know all the qualities of connivance and deceptiveness you would ever want to. And his characters simply exude a polished chicanery in such a flamboyant and articualte manner that they are a pure delight to experience.
I started a thread in the Lounge discussing the works of Jack Vance. Never have I encountered a more colorful group of greedy deceptive scoundrel types than in his books. And it is worth noting that several of his works have been made into RPG''s.
All I can say is: read his Demon Princes series and his Planet of Adventure series and you will know all the qualities of connivance and deceptiveness you would ever want to. And his characters simply exude a polished chicanery in such a flamboyant and articualte manner that they are a pure delight to experience.
_______________________________
"To understand the horse you'll find that you're going to be working on yourself. The horse will give you the answers and he will question you to see if you are sure or not."
- Ray Hunt, in Think Harmony With Horses
ALU - SHRDLU - WORDNET - CYC - SWALE - AM - CD - J.M. - K.S. | CAA - BCHA - AQHA - APHA - R.H. - T.D. | 395 - SPS - GORDIE - SCMA - R.M. - G.R. - V.C. - C.F.
"To understand the horse you'll find that you're going to be working on yourself. The horse will give you the answers and he will question you to see if you are sure or not."
- Ray Hunt, in Think Harmony With Horses
ALU - SHRDLU - WORDNET - CYC - SWALE - AM - CD - J.M. - K.S. | CAA - BCHA - AQHA - APHA - R.H. - T.D. | 395 - SPS - GORDIE - SCMA - R.M. - G.R. - V.C. - C.F.
August 22, 2001 08:25 PM
Let me clarify
Thx, guys, but I wasn''t looking for theif traits. What gameplay elements do you need to make theives and scammers acceptable? Or are they never acceptable?
Take a comparison: Random catastrophes in empire games. I know there are many who turn them off, because they don''t want an earthquake or supernova or whatever to interrupt their progress.
I think your typical cRPGer wants to advance their character.
So, if they walk into town, open up their pack, and find their +12 Gold Plated Juggling Balls missing because they just walked through a crowd containing pick-pockets, I''m not sure that even in a single player game a designer can make this acceptable.
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Just waiting for the mothership...
Thx, guys, but I wasn''t looking for theif traits. What gameplay elements do you need to make theives and scammers acceptable? Or are they never acceptable?
Take a comparison: Random catastrophes in empire games. I know there are many who turn them off, because they don''t want an earthquake or supernova or whatever to interrupt their progress.
I think your typical cRPGer wants to advance their character.
So, if they walk into town, open up their pack, and find their +12 Gold Plated Juggling Balls missing because they just walked through a crowd containing pick-pockets, I''m not sure that even in a single player game a designer can make this acceptable.
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Just waiting for the mothership...
--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...
112
August 22, 2001 08:43 PM
Well, what I was trying to get at was expanding on the concept of thieving and scamming into a more in depth process. As you have described it, it sounds like a statistical thing, which has no interesting aspect to it at all.
But, as in the example I gave with Jack Vance's works, his characters bring such deeds to a high art. Here is a typical scenario taken right from a Vance book to give you an idea: your character enters a new town via a port. Right away your character is accosted by an individual who verbally accesses what the value of your person is in a slave market. And then he professes to sell you 'insurance' against being taken as a slave. If you agree to purchase this plan and are subsequently taken as a slave, you will forthrightly be freed because you hold insurance. This is a scam! Or is it? Is there really a risk of being taken as a slave? Is the policy even legit?
Edited by - bishop_pass on August 22, 2001 9:47:59 PM
But, as in the example I gave with Jack Vance's works, his characters bring such deeds to a high art. Here is a typical scenario taken right from a Vance book to give you an idea: your character enters a new town via a port. Right away your character is accosted by an individual who verbally accesses what the value of your person is in a slave market. And then he professes to sell you 'insurance' against being taken as a slave. If you agree to purchase this plan and are subsequently taken as a slave, you will forthrightly be freed because you hold insurance. This is a scam! Or is it? Is there really a risk of being taken as a slave? Is the policy even legit?
Edited by - bishop_pass on August 22, 2001 9:47:59 PM
_______________________________
"To understand the horse you'll find that you're going to be working on yourself. The horse will give you the answers and he will question you to see if you are sure or not."
- Ray Hunt, in Think Harmony With Horses
ALU - SHRDLU - WORDNET - CYC - SWALE - AM - CD - J.M. - K.S. | CAA - BCHA - AQHA - APHA - R.H. - T.D. | 395 - SPS - GORDIE - SCMA - R.M. - G.R. - V.C. - C.F.
"To understand the horse you'll find that you're going to be working on yourself. The horse will give you the answers and he will question you to see if you are sure or not."
- Ray Hunt, in Think Harmony With Horses
ALU - SHRDLU - WORDNET - CYC - SWALE - AM - CD - J.M. - K.S. | CAA - BCHA - AQHA - APHA - R.H. - T.D. | 395 - SPS - GORDIE - SCMA - R.M. - G.R. - V.C. - C.F.
August 22, 2001 08:46 PM
Well, if by acceptable you mean being accepted by society, its pertending to be someone they are not, con- artists, so they gain a reputation and still be able to steel.
517
August 22, 2001 09:02 PM
I always loved the leprechauns in Nethack. They could steal money and objects (actually, there may have been another monster that stole objects) from you and teleport, so they were a real pain, and they could even dissapear from a level altogether, but, if you moved fast and killed them before long (hard to do - high defence + teleport) you could get the money/objects back. There were rumors of vaults where you could find all the money/objects you lost.
The point is if there are ways to get the loss back, there''s nothing wrong with thieves.
Also, there was a sweet thieves law in ancient egypt: all thieves had a thieves master. When they stole things, they gave them to the master thief. The people that lost their objects could go to the master thief and get them back for a 1/4 of their value.
The point is if there are ways to get the loss back, there''s nothing wrong with thieves.
Also, there was a sweet thieves law in ancient egypt: all thieves had a thieves master. When they stole things, they gave them to the master thief. The people that lost their objects could go to the master thief and get them back for a 1/4 of their value.
August 22, 2001 09:06 PM
Ouch! I''m really not making myself clear here... 
Acceptable = Player will not get mad if the thief steals from them.
bishop,
Again, thx, but I''m not worried about implementation at the moment. Strictly thinking gameplay. Statistics or a good, creative scam enacted by smart agents means nothing if one can''t figure out how to make it acceptable to the player. :/
Not sure how to be more clear on this, because I don''t know why players get so POed at theives in a MMO. My thought is just maybe they don''t like to lose anything?
But that''s not right, because players lose stuff all the time to monsters... Though in a single-player game like Diablo, they never lose anything.
Maybe thieves are just unworkable, and shouldn''t even be included as NPCs?
--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...
Acceptable = Player will not get mad if the thief steals from them.
bishop,
Again, thx, but I''m not worried about implementation at the moment. Strictly thinking gameplay. Statistics or a good, creative scam enacted by smart agents means nothing if one can''t figure out how to make it acceptable to the player. :/
Not sure how to be more clear on this, because I don''t know why players get so POed at theives in a MMO. My thought is just maybe they don''t like to lose anything?
But that''s not right, because players lose stuff all the time to monsters... Though in a single-player game like Diablo, they never lose anything.
Maybe thieves are just unworkable, and shouldn''t even be included as NPCs?
--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...
--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...
August 22, 2001 09:13 PM
Diodor, thank you! You understand me! 
Good point. I guess players just see it as unfair if they get waylayed and can't do anything about it.
How, then, do you make a totally corrupt region where the cops intimidate you for money? Or a town swarming with crime?
In combination with getting your stuff back (maybe through counter theft?
), maybe you should be able to get info about rough areas or hints about how to beat theives? Like we give foreign travellers? "Don't go to this part of town, it's filled with thieves and miscreants."
Hey, I like this idea. This could work for getting your stuff back. Maybe if you could find the thief master and either take him out or strike a deal (buy your items back for 2x the price?) then losing stuff would be more tolerable. It would prolly still be a pain, but no worse than fighting enemies?
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Just waiting for the mothership...
Edited by - Wavinator on August 22, 2001 10:16:54 PM
quote: Original post by Diodor
The point is if there are ways to get the loss back, there's nothing wrong with thieves.
Good point. I guess players just see it as unfair if they get waylayed and can't do anything about it.
How, then, do you make a totally corrupt region where the cops intimidate you for money? Or a town swarming with crime?
In combination with getting your stuff back (maybe through counter theft?
), maybe you should be able to get info about rough areas or hints about how to beat theives? Like we give foreign travellers? "Don't go to this part of town, it's filled with thieves and miscreants."quote:
Also, there was a sweet thieves law in ancient egypt: all thieves had a thieves master. When they stole things, they gave them to the master thief. The people that lost their objects could go to the master thief and get them back for a 1/4 of their value.
Hey, I like this idea. This could work for getting your stuff back. Maybe if you could find the thief master and either take him out or strike a deal (buy your items back for 2x the price?) then losing stuff would be more tolerable. It would prolly still be a pain, but no worse than fighting enemies?
--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...
Edited by - Wavinator on August 22, 2001 10:16:54 PM
--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...
112
August 22, 2001 09:38 PM
quote: Original post by Wavinator
bishop,
Again, thx, but I''m not worried about implementation at the moment. Strictly thinking gameplay. Statistics or a good, creative scam enacted by smart agents means nothing if one can''t figure out how to make it acceptable to the player. :/
Well, I was only thinking of gameplay also. I never mentioned implementation. I was mentioning elements of gameplay, as in characters with scams as opposed to statistical pickpocketing. In other words, the thieving part is happening to the player and the player is either seeing it happen to him or not.
_______________________________
"To understand the horse you'll find that you're going to be working on yourself. The horse will give you the answers and he will question you to see if you are sure or not."
- Ray Hunt, in Think Harmony With Horses
ALU - SHRDLU - WORDNET - CYC - SWALE - AM - CD - J.M. - K.S. | CAA - BCHA - AQHA - APHA - R.H. - T.D. | 395 - SPS - GORDIE - SCMA - R.M. - G.R. - V.C. - C.F.
"To understand the horse you'll find that you're going to be working on yourself. The horse will give you the answers and he will question you to see if you are sure or not."
- Ray Hunt, in Think Harmony With Horses
ALU - SHRDLU - WORDNET - CYC - SWALE - AM - CD - J.M. - K.S. | CAA - BCHA - AQHA - APHA - R.H. - T.D. | 395 - SPS - GORDIE - SCMA - R.M. - G.R. - V.C. - C.F.
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