daedulas, one of the major reasons that Tae-Kwon-do is so different from most of the other styles is that TKD was intended for unarmed military use. Actually developed by a general in the Korean army. A lot of the other arts were developed by peasants or monks as a form of self defense from attackers, whereas TKD is actually meant for attacking. TKD is also meant for survere incapacitation with the emphasis of sharp, powerfull attacks to critical points of the body (i.e. the tempal).
I''ve been taking TKD for about 9 months now (just made green belt). Today I just went to a thing the schools in our area do called Dog Day where everyone gets together and spars and basically beats the crap out of each other for an hour. The only rules are the ones the individuals come up with for each match. Think of it like a social Fight Club. IT FRICKIN'' ROCKS. I loved it.
Another thing about martial arts is that the true masters of martial arts don''t stick to just one art, they study lots of them, and they mix and match from them all. sometimes attacks from two styles may be similar in execution, but have very different effects.

Are you even trying to be intelligent?
'cuz if you are, it ain't workin'

capn_midnight : Could this please not degenerate this discussion into a "my dragon style will kill your tiger style" arguement? I am sure we can all discuss various styles of martial arts without degenerating into the petty politicing/butting egos that so often irritates the outter edges of the martial arts society.

Never the less..

I have been studying Wing Chun Kung Fu (WWCKFA) for the past 2 years, and have often considered it from a gaming perspective.

I believe that the issue is not whether or not a author can actually IMPLEMENT a game that can display or produce realistic fighting sequences/moves/combos, but instead can the author develop a system in which the user can actually control such a complex concept, as fighting, with the simple input devices that we currently have at hand.

In wing chun we enjoy the usage of close-hand pinning and trapping techniques in tune with contact reflexes that would be virtually impossible to represent in a interactive fighting style game, but could only be shown from a non-interactive perspective (i.e. the "Jackie Chan" effect talked about earlier)

But on the hand, I do agree with LandFish. In terms of fighting games, I do find myself (when I play them) employing the same principles and techniques that I would normally within a real fight situation, and more often than not, they work the way that they are meant to. In that aspect, I can either assume that (a) The game was built under the direction of some people who knew how to fight (b) They just built it, and martial artists REALLY know what they are on about >chuckles< (c) all of the above.

But when it really boils down to it, it really is just is a game, and as Daedalus said, when someone who plays it constantly knows the ins and outs of it.. they''re going to generally kick the butt of whom they are playing, no matter how much skill they can extend from what they ordinarily know.

Be interesting to see if your brother could work backwards, and fight you in real terms, with the skill''s he''s "learnt" from playing games... >chuckles<

Actually along those lines, I heard a story about a guy at a tournery around here who tried to execute one of Scorpion''s diving moves from mortal combat. His oponent saw it a mile away, and simply moved out of the way. I believe the guy ended up almost dislocating a shoulder, and wrenched his neck almost completley out of wack. It was completley inefectual.

Now there would be an idea. Build a game, ONLY with moves/strategies etc that can actually be translated into real fighting tactics in rl. Or maybe thats not possible? Maybe it wouldn''t even sell? Just a thought.

My 2c,

Mark




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capn_midnight: I did know the history behind TKD, martial arts history is something I enjoy learning. As you said, its meant for military use. In a military environment the goal is to teach your soldiers how to kill quickly and get the reasonably competent as soon as possible. Some styles of Karate also share the same miltary background. The problem is that in a military environment you can usually take for granted that the people you'll be teaching will be reasonably tall and pretty strong to begin with. This means that it might not be the ideal style for someone with a hight or strength disadvantage.

The thing about Kung-fu and some styles of Karate is that they do most of the same stuff as TKD, but emphasises much more on perfecting form as well as manipulation of pressure points to allow a person to deal with someone much bigger and/or stronger than themselves. The idea is that, unlike the original practicioners of TKD, a person studying Kung-fu is going to have decades to dedicate to learning the art. The difference is similar to the difference between the Wu-Su and Wing-Chung styles of Kung-fu. Wu-Su is the traditional Shaolin style while Wing-Chun is an abreviated version of Wu-Su designed by the Triad gangs as a way to teach their troops how to fight without spending a lifetime doing it.

I never meant to suggest that TKD wasn't a very practicle martial art. In a military situation it could be very usefull concidering how quickly it can be picked up. On the other hand, I'd be very leary of using it in a self-defense situation. It's really easy to cause peminant damage or death if you kick hard to the head or blow out a joint real quick. If the person wasn't, _very_obviosely_, trying to kill, rape, or mame you then you'll have a real bad civil and/or criminal trial on your hands. One of the reasons I, personally, rate my other martial arts higher than TKD is that they all have much more graduated and controlled levels of damage that can be inflicted upon an attacker based on who that person is and how badly they're trying to hurt you.

Whenever I hear people talk about what color belt they are it always gives me a good chuckle. The running gag at my Kung-fu school is that we're all "black belts" (part of the school uniform is a black sash). I've been studying Wu-Su for 6 semesters now (about two years) and I have yet to reach first rank out of, I think, 16 possible ranks. This isn't uncommon in Kung-fu. Its almost expected that it'd take someone 30-40 years of active studying to reach the rank of master. Yet again, this has a lot to do with the military background of TKD and Karate.

As for true masters of the martial arts, I'd have to say that depends very much on the master. Thought, I would have to agree that most of them seem to, at least, introduce themselve to different styles. Of course, there are some martial arts that mix better than others. For instance Kung-fu mixes pretty well with Karate and Aikido because it has some of the hard attacks of Karate already part of it and some of the soft techniques of Aikido too. On the other end of the spectrum we have TKD and Copowaro (spelling?) which are both so formless that they don't seem like they'd mix well with the other three.

In my Kung-fu school we usually do sparing once a week. I have to agree its a lot of fun. On the other hand, our form of sparring has a lot more rules than yours does (we do it at the school gym. Between the school officials being nervoise about insurance and traditional sparring rules for Kung-fu we always try not to get too out of control).

-Daedalus

Edited by - Daedalus on October 29, 2000 2:18:26 AM

Neurotic: Sorry if that last post seemed like a "my Kung-fu is stronger than our Karate" post. I just couldn''t help myself from answering ;-) and I tried to keep it as polite and non-confrontational as possible. Besides, I didn''t see your post until after I posted mine.

As for the game topic, I''d have to say that for an MMORPG actually controlling the combat seems to me to be a little bit beyond the point of the genre to me. One of the main appeals of MMORPGs, especially to older players, is that they don''t require extreme finger dexterity in order to play succesfully. Any system for martial arts combat, no matter how simple, would require some sort of fast reflex reaction.

I think that as far as pure fighting games go, todays control system is pushing the envelope for todays input devices. The only way I could see better control of fighting games is some sort of motion capture suit setup that would let you do the moves yourself. Then, of course, you''d have to become a martial artist just to play the game. I guess that''d be one way to get the American populus back into shape. ;-) Of course then people really would have a reason to complain about games making their kids into more effective killers. :-(

On a related note. There was an article on www.slashdot.org a number of months back about some college student that pieced together an inexpesive lightsaber simulator using a plastic lightsaber from a toy store and a webcam to track the motion. I couldn''t help but wonder what could be done with that if you were to add one or two more webcams to increase accuracy and added some force feedback to the sword. That might be a neat, inexpensive, way to improve RPG combat.

Oh and as for my brother, we''ve tried that little experiment on a number of different occasions with the expected results. ;-) Thruth be told, he''s three years younger than me and, even thought he''s now taller than me, I''ve always been able to pin him even before I started taking martial arts.

-Daedalus

Daedalus : Nah, I didn''t think it was "that" kinda of post... What gets my back up is the kinda of immaturity you see in terms of "we''re all tough, cause we fight each other without protection, and we don''t care!" ... you know what that tells me? That tells me that none of you know how to hit properly, cause if you did, there would be blood, and broken bones, and unconscious people DAMN fast.

I like the whole lightsabre thing... all you need then is a VR helmut and some way to institute some force feedback.

There was a game a while ago.. I have a feeling it was under the Star Wars title, that utilized a force feedback joystick (assuming you had one) to act as IF it was the handle of your lightsabre... and your movements would be mimiced by the characted on the screen.

Interesting idea.. but I never tried out the game, so I don''t know how effective it was.

Although... I am envisoning some sort of Arcade FP boxing game... put your hands in some gloves that are attached by wires to the machine (check motion). You actual hands in the gloves are obviously mimicked by the hands in the game.... throw in a physics engine specifically tailored for the human body (i.e. oponent)

The question is how to make the avatar move its feet...

But could definatley be an interesting project... especially in terms of things like bringing your hands up to protect your face... you can''t see through them... stuff like that...

I dunno.. just something that popped into my head

Having posted the idea here I''ll probably see it on the floors some time next year or so

Mark



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I''ve been envoleved in civil war renactments, and at least a dozen fights during my school years...

as for RPGs I''ve been in one midevil era battle renactment [several friends of mine do that sort of thing, others specialise in cival war and WWII renactments]...however I dont know jack about martial arts...

I''ve never clamed to be "bad" or even tried to "prove" it...but even though I have experience in "fake" battles...the though that whomever didn''t load such and such cannon corectly makes things very "real"....

I didn''t read most of the posts in this thread (there are so many), but I''ll just assume I''m adding some useful info. I think the problem with realism of combat in fights is that it''s not necessarily very much fun. Imagine Tekken with a realistic combat system. The reason I say this is because basicly, the human body is a fragile thing, and pain is a great motivator. I don''t fight often, but I''ve been taking martial arts for years (Wing Chun, Wu Shu, Shaolin, Hun Gar, Capoeria, and what ever my friend teaches me), and the thing that becomes obvious is that a good fighter can hit really hard really fast. I mean, Bruce Lee didn''t win all those fights cuz he played with his opponents, the man was incredibly powerful and incredible fast. The question is, do you want that in your game? I guess it''s a design choice, but, personally, I like cinematic battles much better.

Dare To Think Outside The Box
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Damn!..hit the wrong key,,,sorry

I just wanted to add that it doesn''t make a difference at all about what you know about combat...but it does make a huge difference on how well you can implament the things that you do know...It is all about keeping a cool head and knowing just what you are capable of...there is no "ultimate" form of kung-fo simply because it depends 100% on the skills and mindset of those who practice it...it isn''t what you know but rather how well you can act on the things you can percieve...and perception is a key...if you percieve to much you will generally "feel" too much when they do connect with a hit..if you percieve to little you won''t "feel" much but in turn will miss many combat specific opertunities...

I''m really looking forward to a game called Oni. It''s like a mixture of fight-games like Virtual Fighter and 3rd PS.

Neurotic: What I was thinking, when it came to force feedback, was something like a stronger version of the nintendo rumble pack placed inside the hilt of the lightsaber/sword. I''m not sure how feasable a lightsaber game would be because a hilt without a blade would have terrible balance characteristics but a fantasy game like this would be cool. The only stipulation would be that, in order to get points, the players would be ultimately responsible for fulling their swrod back from a blow or parry rather than continueing to move forward after they''ve struck something. But, then again, nothing is perfect.

The VR glasses would almost be a requirement to get the immersive feel needed. As for tracking the player''s body motion, a simple black jumpsuit with brightly colored spots placed strategically could be used to allow the 2-3 webcams to track the body movement the same way it tracks the ends of the sword. The only real limiting factor to the player''s movement would be the size of the square target area in which he/she were visible to all the webcams. Other controls (maybe buttons on the sword handle) could be used for movement when not in a fight situation, or attempt to run away from a fight.

As for the sparring without padding, I''d have to agree with you that it''s always struck me as a little unsafe. Whnever we spar in class, we always take off our shoes and wear gloves and shin pads. We''re also expected to pull _all_ punches and kicks and _never_ make contact with the head if at all possible. Even so, we''ve already had one guy recieve a pretty swift kick to the head this year resulting in a bloody lip and painfull jaw (the guy kicking wasn''t trying to actually hit the head, but the other guy dodged into the foot). I''ve heard of that kind of stuff before (backyard "profesional" wrestling and other kinds of things) but its a quick way to get yourself hurt.

Inversed: It really depends on what style the person trains in and how long they''ve been training. Most martial arts teach you to deal with your opponent as quickly as possible, but they differ on what they concider "quickly" and whether they''re willing to train for a prolonged melee if your forced to fight someone of similar skill as yourself. The human body, with the right conditioning, is a little more resilient than you''re giving credit for. On the other hand, martial arts like Kung-fu or Karate that expect the possibility of a long fight (long being a relative term meaning 2-3 minutes rather than 20-30 seconds. I''m not talking about the unrealistic, thought very entertaining, multi-hour Dragonball Z rumbles ;-) ) try to teach you to block the most damaging attacks and condition the body to shrug off any general body attacks that get past your blocks.

Of course, in a game, you want the "cinematic battle" rather than realistic ones. However, the best cinematic battles in today''s media (Jackie Chan films, Bruce Lee films, the Matrix) all have one thing in common. While they all exagerate greatly on the amount of physical punishment the characters can take during a long fight, they don''t compromise on using real martial arts techniques. When it comes to realism of battle damage and longevity, I don''t usually think its something that has to be adhered to extremely strictly (I do, however, think that there are limits to how far it can be stretched). On the other hand, I''m a big stickler for modeling your animation tightly after real fighting styles. There just something about real martial art moves that can''t be made up "out of the blue" by some choreographer and that makes the difference immediately obvious between a crappy action film and a good one.

-Daedalus