Ok.. now.. a lot of martial arts is designed to have the person die or get knocked out, or incapacitated instantly.. yes. Your control and ability to predict the other person''s motions determines if those hits succeed or fail. So.. you can inflict a lot of damage, but rarely. Have you ever tried to hit someone like that? A groin shot, for instance? It''s not that easy to do unless the person''s not expecting it. That''s why you have combos, something to ditract or entertain them, while the real hit slips through. This is how i fight, a punch or two to distract, and then the third one is an actual blow. Watch boxing, they do a lot of this.

However.. back to medieval things. Back then, it wasn''t quite so formulated. You aim the sword at something important when you swing. You can''t make multiple attacks unless you''re using two weapons.. so there''s no possibility to distract in the same sense. What i''d like to see is more use of hands in combat. Someone swings at you, you parry and then backhand them with your gauntlet.. then run them through. That''s how it''s done. This is roughly along the system i''m making. the third edition od D&D has some elements like this. They call it "attacks of opportunity". When you make a move in some way, another person gets a shot at you, since you''re distacting yourself from them, or something like that. I''ve got a system very similar to this that i''m putting in that makes use of what i consider to be a clearer system. The attack of opportunity system is really difficult to understand for the most part.. since everything moves one at a time instead of in a constant flow.

And i getcha on the armor. I''ve seen a few sets of armor.. and yes, they weren''t so bad. Usually plate was worn with a chain style underneath, which was designed to stop piercing objects such as arrows and swords. Believe it or not.. a sword very easily pierced through plate, because the plate could only be so thick to be practical. Arrows also did the same. You simply needed multiple layers. And don''t forget that armor bent.. eaisly. Someone with a club could bash someone into their plate mail so bad, they couldn''t move. then they''d simply take the person''s sword, and stick it through them, since they couldn''t move. Well, that''s enough for now.

J

Forget about blocking. As my Kendo teacher once said:

"If you need to block, you''re too slow."

AP: This thread exists to discuss how real-world martial arts can be used to improve video game combat. Its not here so that you can post "my martial art is better than your martial art" flamebait. Your post has absolutely no relevence to the topic of the thread or game developement in general. Besides, all martial arts have their own differing philosophies. No one martial art os "better" than any other, its all subjective. For instance, most Aikido instructors would lecture your Kendo instructor on how strikes are as unneccesary as he claims blocks are. On the other hand, a Kung-fu instructor would say that only using strikes is crass and that there are plenty of times in which you want to be able to defend against an attack without harming the person atacking you (ex. a drunk friend losses control and swings a punch at you).

-Daedalus

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster

Forget about blocking. As my Kendo teacher once said:

"If you need to block, you''re too slow."

This is true. However, It doesn''t mean you should forget about blocking, because many fighters throw attacks inside of lag time. I would rather say this: "If you NEED to block, you''re too slow. If you CHOOSE to block, it''s all good."

Plus, you''re doing Kendo. blocking IS useless when you are fighting a weapon, but in Hand to Hand, it has a very definite use.

Most of this has been about the martial arts, but i guess what the average rpg is really after are the "medieval things", swordfighting, full plate armor and such...

First about the armor: I´ve worn a chain mail shirt (longsleeve), it weighs about 15 kilos but you hardly notice it, as the weight is well balanced. I´d guess that you do become tired much much faster though...
About the full plate mail, I know a guy who... not important. A well crafted plate mail (tailored for the wearer of course) does not restrict movement in any severe way. It´s true that you have to carry the weight around, which would slow you down a bit too, I´d guess but it´s not like you´re staggering and clanking around like a stormtrooper.

About swords and stuff: It´s nothing like you see in the movies (newer ones are better i guess, i liked gladiator a lot). But especially the sixties and seventies medieval stuff is crap in regards to swordfighting. I saw a documentary once, a two handed sword is definitely NOT the thing COnan carries around. It´s more a kind of an allround weapon, for slashing and thrusting, but also long sections of the blade that are dull, so that you can grip it there with one ore even two hands (and butt the opponent with the handle or the crossbar). An then there is the one and a half hander (i think also called bastard sword), it´s wielded more like a chainsaw than a "regular" sword.

Renaissance fighting is a lot easier, fencing and stuff. This has all been very well documented (since about 1600), and hasn´t changed much since. You have your basic offensive and defensive moves that are still the same nowadays. So if you´re interested in that try a semester of fencing (but sabre, because it´s the only weapon used for slashing and thrusting)...
The only problem is that it´s not easy to find literature about that...

THat´s the technical side at least, for use in an rpg you´d have to make it abstract to some degree. Not just for reasons of time and complexity but also because fighting is inherently three dimensional, and that´s usually a problem on a 2d screen.

The real difficulty comes in in another way. If you''ve played Perfect Dark.. and used the combat boost, then you know who a good fight sequence might go. Why, in movies, do you think they slow certain parts down? In reality, when you''re focused to such a degree, time seems to slow, things seem to flow differently. Your thoughts are at full speed still, but that''s all. As you follow the movements around, and you attempt to counter.. reaction time is what it''s about. If there''s an opening, you have to react. If you have an opening, you have to react. It''s all about reaction times. There''s certain things you can do to lower the person''s reaction time.. or even stun them. after brushing aside their sword, you could whack theit helmet with the elbow of your plate armor. Anything to throw the person off. But in the end.. it''s all about the reactions and reacting CORRECTLY. Anyone can react.. it''s an inborn trait we all have. Training teaches us to react correctly, however. You know when you see an opening like this, you can step right and stick your sword right between the 3rd and 4th ribs.. hehe.
The interesting thing is.. training teaches you to react faster. So it''s all about how much you absorb of the training.. moreso than how much training you''ve had. Some people could spend a lifetime training with a sword, and never be as good as someone who''s got real talent for it.. and spends a month training

How do you, the game designer, define "talent" though? We''ve talked about this once before.. but nothing much came of it (cept some usual arguing like "no, that''s not how it is, it''s like this" "no no, it''s like this!" "no, this!" etc..). So perhaps we should start a new thread and see if we can''t get something going about this ;p

J

Hase: You are right, most MMORPGs tend to focus on a Medival European theme rather than a Classical Asian one (thought it''d be nice to see one like that, kinda like the AD&D Kara-tur world). However, you are also right in implying that, with the exception of Renessance sword techniques such as fencing, most of the older authentic sword styles of Europe aren''t well documented. The question is, since you''re in a fantasy world anyway, why not just mix martial arts weapons forms with the midieval setting. It wouldn''t be that hard, and thats what movies like Gladiator do anyway.

If you''ve ever seen some of the Kung-fu broadsword forms, they''d look awsome in a fantsay game. You''d probably want to get rid of some of the more fansiful flurishes in order to make them look less oriental in nature, but they''d provide you with the realistic action that you see in movies. If you have a decent connection, try to get your hands on the Ultima Online 2 movie they were showing off at the last E3 conference. Interwieved with the clips of the game, they have clips of a guy doing Kung-fu moves during their motion capture sessions. Even thought the game is set in a, loosely, mevieval setting; the action is still believable. The only difference between what they''re dooing and what I''m suggesting is that I think it should be possible to teach the computer to line up attacks and blocks so that two fighting charcters actually look like they''re making contact.

The issue here, as pointed out in one of the other threads, isn''t about re-creating total realism for the sake of realism. It''s about taking only what is convenient from reality in order to make our lives as game developers easier and provide the user with _believable_ action.

-Daedalus

Niphty -
just a thought: Real time combat, no multiplayer : you have generic moves (could be more or less the same for each weapon/unarmed), like you divide the target zones into inner/outer and upper/lower, and maybe swings and thrusts (not too many buttons to remember however!) and make the combat event dependent on "skill" (with a specific weapon), i.e. Hits become more accurate , do more damage ... (lvl 0 thrust with dagger: hit on upper torso: random location, random damage; lvl 10 thrust with dagger: likely to find throat/heart/gap in armor, does extra damage),
and then something which i´ll call "speed" (a general combat ability, speed, reaction, perception.....) which determines how fast the combat runs for the player. Higher skill, slow motion combat. That way the master can do more moves and react better to enemy actions (dodge, parry).

Daedalus -
I agree, I wouldn´t worry too much about the "correctness" of your moves, of course you should try to get the principles (just not to piss off those people who actually do know something about a fighting style) right but apart from that I´m sure you´ll be forgiven for taking a little "dramatic license". Realism is just needed in a small dose to make things credible (so no 2meter sword on an 5 foot animé, please). Then again a guy like Astaroth (Soul Calibur) might actually have the muscle to wield an axe like that, ... he wouldn´t be fast however.
And there´s nothing wrong about combining fighting styles, but a problem could be that certain styles have a certain kind of opponent in mind.... like your heavily armored knight, he has his 10 pound broadsword to pierce other, equally well armored knights. Against, say an unarmored guy with a rapier the thing would (or could) get slightly ridiculous. You´ll have a hard time trying to get through a chainmail with a rapier, let alone full plate, but getting a nimble guy with no armor to slow him down with a broadsword and armor is going to be equally difficult.
So maybe you´d have to try to find some common ground, maybe just omitting troublesome elements (like heavy armor), or making it so impractical that the player would want to wear such a thing ONLY for a tournament or a large scale battle.

Hase.. the only problem with speed slowing the person''s view of time down is, how wants to fight in slow-mo combat ALL THE TIME? No, really.. think about it. You''d want it to be full-speed, yet kinda like Matrixy.. or like in Charlie''s Angels.. where the camera slowed motion as they hit, etc. I''d say make it full speed TILL you were going to be hit, and then make it have a "reaction speed" which is different than normal speed.

Now.. let''s skip back a step. In normal combat, you pick combos for attacks.. NOT one attack at a time. And you can string combos together. The more skillful you are at fighting, the better combos you have avalible to you. The more speed you have, the better chance they''ll get through the defenses of the enemy. The more accuracy you have, the more likely you''ll hit critcally.
To counter-act this, the opponent must perform a block. You pick a combo, say high kick (right), low kick (right), elbow to face (left). The opponent picks a defense, high guard (right) mid gaurd (left). Thus, they would be able to block your first kick. Then they have a chance to break your combo, and counter-strike.. or you have a chance to continue the combo. The result decided.. you go on.
Now let''s say you''re on guard in the previous situation, and you pick middle guard first. Thus the first attack can come through. However, you have a reaction factor. Time with which you can react and use to change from mid guard to high block. guarding isn''t the process of blocking.. it''s merely predicting where you''ll need to block at.. thus it''s not the final word in blocking. You could guard high and the person kick high and still hit because you reacted incorrectly. This brings up an odd ordeal.. incorrectness. Most games lack this, and i''ll touch on it later. For now we''ll assume the player has all correct information. During this reaction time.. the time slows and you actually have to make a choice of what to do. This is when the player commands his person to block the incoming kick. Since you know it''s a high kick, you perform a high block. The player then has to have enough speed to move from middle guard to high blobk in time to deflect the kick. Depending on the ammount of time difference between when the block arrives and when the strike arrives helps determine the outcome. If you''ve got a lot of time to perpare to block, you''re ready for the blow.. chances are you''ll break the combo. However, if you''re barely blocking it.. chances are you''ll just deflect and the person will continue the combo. Sometimes deflection will put you in a worse position for the next move of the combo. This isn''t the final word though..

If the kick was deflected and the combo unbroken, then the attacking player would have to skip the second move of the combo to regain footing and balance. If they were blocked and the combo unbroken, then they could still make the second kick with the same leg. Deflection would screw up both parties.. but not break the combo, nessicarily. A solid block disrupts the opponent while maintaining the stance and balance of yourself.. allowing you to counter-strike. It''s this that actually makes things happen

On to incorrectness. Say your player sucks at fighting, and someone massively skilled fights him. This person would be able to "fake" moves. They''d seem to be coming in to strike low, but instead they''d hit middle. This opens up an entirely new avenue for combat.. player misinformation. If the player is told the person is going to attack low.. and they''re not.. they would be pissed. so how do you handle this? That''s one i''ve not totally figured out. The best way, i think, is to not tell the player where they''re going to hit at all. "You''re uncertain where the blow will strike.. but you think it may be low (left)." Something like that might make the player not get into fierce combats unless the character is trained. That also gives the player an adequte representation of when they should flee And it adds depth and perspective to an RPG, instead of just making it a FPS.

J

Of course, slow motion all the time will eventually get the player angry, but if it happens only in specific moments, won´t the player make mistakes, cause he is still playing like it was real time (when you hammer those buttons it takes a long time to stop), but maybe the reaction element could be fun..

I like the idea of "faking" attacks (fencing works on the same principle). It´s basically a speed thing.
If you fake a strike to say the left torso and he parries the you fake again to the head, if he parries you move on, if he doesn´t you execute the strike... fastest one wins. Of course there is always the possibility that he´ll do something different entirely..
Then there is such a thing as 2nd intention attacks. This means that you do not intend to hit with the first strike but to draw out your opponent (ex: You fake a strike to the head, then go left, knowing that he is expecting you and will parry in such and such way. Knowing this you are a step ahead and can react fast enough to strike into the opening in his defence...)

I guess what it comes down to is what kind of game you are doing it for. A side view fighting game would have to have more moves than an rpg because in an rpg you should let the character (and his stats) play a role in the outcome and not the speedy fingers of the player.
In a fast action fighting game you might put in the possibility to fake or modify strikes by adding combinatons (btn A - high kick, press your mod button B and C for medium kick and the kick changes from high to med, but loses some power in the process...)
or combo moves..
In an rpg you have to find a way to make the fight dynamic and interesting but not give the player too much control. Fighting game is about doing things yourself, RPGs are about telling the character what to do and watch him perform more or less well.

So, while the combo/fake attacks thing works great for a fighting game it wouldn´t do much good in an rpg, unless you find a way to make it more indirect; maybe letting the player give the general parameters for the attack (offensive/defensive, direct/indirect, ...) or breaking it up into turn-based, which is tempting because of the possible complexity, but could result in extremely long (and boring?) battles.
EX: you aim a massive blow to the head (reaction roll: pass) you see that your opponent will parry in time, you try to make your swing more to the left so you can get the arm (speed/strenght roll: fail), your sword crashes into his shield (strength roll) damage to shield, your hand is numb, he stabs at you low, try to parry (reaction roll.....)......

Personally I´d like to see such a fighting system, but for the general RPG player it´s too much detail, they are usually happy with the basic options of attack/move/cast spell..